tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5810004648766820675.post8619754542408474411..comments2024-03-29T07:13:32.093+00:00Comments on Robert Schwandl's Urban Rail Blog: VANCOUVER SkyTrainRobert Schwandlhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13156288779783738076noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5810004648766820675.post-45441427901286529782022-10-12T12:44:22.848+01:002022-10-12T12:44:22.848+01:00Formation SEO Montréal
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The plans change as the <br />provincial government change.Nathan Davidowiczhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12829020790080783266noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5810004648766820675.post-82374279111420847682015-03-01T21:19:26.991+00:002015-03-01T21:19:26.991+00:00Thank you very much for this website - I use it to...Thank you very much for this website - I use it to plan my world travels. It is often more useful than local information. In metro Vancouver there is a plebiscite planned to raise the provincial taxes by 1/2% to pay for transit expansion. However, early indications are that it will be voted down. One of the problems is that residents of suburban Surrey (500,000 pop), who only have 4 skytrain stations, feel that all their taxes will go to building an expensive tunnel expansion in Vancouver. Surrey is already growing much faster than Vancouver (600,000 pop) and will likely be the biggest city in B.C. soon. Another problem is that there is a view that Translink is mis-managed. They just fired their CEO.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5810004648766820675.post-82294745734910481952014-02-22T02:46:04.772+00:002014-02-22T02:46:04.772+00:00Correction, InTransitBC (the successful bidder) pr...Correction, InTransitBC (the successful bidder) proposed the expensive dual system, while Bombardier (unsuccessful bidder) had proposed the streetcar.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5810004648766820675.post-11073541506656320082014-02-22T02:37:51.025+00:002014-02-22T02:37:51.025+00:00The single track terminus at Richmond Brighouse is...The single track terminus at Richmond Brighouse is really the brainchild of Richmond City Council. Richmond wanted an at-grade LRT down the middle of the street (in the space previously occupied by the rapid bus lanes). Bombardier had proposed either a dual system (where a driver would board at Bridgeport) or a transfer to a streetcar at Bridgeport, but Bombardier's lost the bid. Since Richmond was aghast at the prospect of an elevated guideway in its downtown, it wanted the profile minimized. That led to the single tracking of the end of the line - and of course the project (looking for cost savigs) was all too happy to agree. At one time, the track around the future Capstan station was also slated to be single track, but that decision was reversed due to the impact on operations.<br />See the "Branchline" issue linked below.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5810004648766820675.post-82491337419419389182014-02-22T02:29:17.069+00:002014-02-22T02:29:17.069+00:00It should be noted, though, that the downtown stre...It should be noted, though, that the downtown streetcar allignment continues to be accommodated in planning for the Southeast False Creek (Olympic Village) area (a broad median down 1st Ave), around Northeast False Creek (near BC Place Stadium) and potential routes to the False Creek flats.<br />Also of interest is that the 1st median allignment forms one of the UBC Line alternatives if that line uses LRT.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5810004648766820675.post-14041078968517235932014-02-15T13:05:33.549+00:002014-02-15T13:05:33.549+00:00And this issue has a good backgrounder on the Mill...And this issue has a good backgrounder on the Millennium Line:<br /><br />http://www.bytownrailwaysociety.ca/branchline/files/2003/2003-01.pdfAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5810004648766820675.post-68420995303315273492014-02-15T12:56:53.161+00:002014-02-15T12:56:53.161+00:00Yes, that's right - a bored tunnel under Queen...Yes, that's right - a bored tunnel under Queen Elizabeth Park would have required a TBM with different cutter heads than the TBM used under False Creek and downtown. That would have also meant a large launching pit and removal pit in a pretty high end neighbourhood. <br /><br />The future 33rd Ave. station also means that the speed of the trains around the curves at Queen Elizabeth Park will be too slow (entering and leaving the station) to require superelevation. <br /><br />See a good background summary in this railway magazine:<br /><br />http://www.bytownrailwaysociety.ca/branchline/files/2009/2009-12.pdfAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5810004648766820675.post-14261787436026691402013-09-15T17:51:32.624+01:002013-09-15T17:51:32.624+01:00I just want to comment on Canada Line capacity. T...I just want to comment on Canada Line capacity. The line was built as a P3 partnership and the maximum design capacity was set by the government at I think 15,000 people per hour per direction. The stations are designed to be 50m (some are built at 40m but have knockout walls to allow expansion to 50m) - and this will allow 60m three-car trains to operate. <br /><br />Because the trains are automated, they can reverse direction quickly, just stop, unload, load and go. The single track on the branches isn't a problem - it takes the train 30 seconds to travel it, allow 1 minute, dwell and 30 seconds back, is two minute headway max. This isn't likely required on the branch at anytime to meet the maximum design capacity.<br /><br />I agree super elevation would have been better, but it wasn't necessary to meet the design speed and capacity objectives. Adding super elevation would have required a different tunnel geometry or trains with angled sides, both adding costs to the line.<br /><br />Driving straight under the park to avoid the turns was non-starter. The first reason is that the park is an extinct volcano and that would mean tunneling through extremely hard tube of larva; the second is that there is a planned future station at 33rd and Cambie and going under the park would have eliminated this option.<br /><br />All stations have track intrusion systems - on the old expo sections it is pressure sensors, on the rest of the system and inclouding Canada line it is laser based system. It first activates a warning and if the intrusion is not cleared, it stops trains entering the station. The system works well. <br /><br />I would add that in 26 years of operation, Skytrain has never had an accident while under automated control. Not one - no derailments, no crashes, nothing. And this is with trains operating as close as 75 seconds apart (the system can handle trains 45 seconds apart). Canada Line has the same signaling and train control system as the rest of the system.<br /><br />Finally - note that Expo and Millenium line use linear induction for propulsion, rather than conventional wheel driven as used on Canada line. Linear induction allows much faster acceleration and no wheel slip (as the wheels are not driving). Skytrain expo and millenium lines have the fasted end to end metro speeds in Canada.David Marlorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02798414107562426640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5810004648766820675.post-15323783706123498622013-09-12T23:51:22.791+01:002013-09-12T23:51:22.791+01:00In fact, warts, inadequacies, deficiencies and all...In fact, warts, inadequacies, deficiencies and all other things considered, the Canada Line is years ahead in ridership and helped open parochial minds to the benefits of metro lines.<br /><br />I would never suggest the same construction methodology and anemic design be used on Broadway, but I believe citizens are way ahead of the politicians in accepting the benefits of a high quality subway there. Broadway must be done better, and that means buiding it for tomorrow, not for today. The economic, institutional and residential density was already there decades ago, and it still awaits transit to catch up.MBnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5810004648766820675.post-37732416787295781222013-09-12T23:39:45.899+01:002013-09-12T23:39:45.899+01:00Adam, the Downtown Streetcar project was rejected ...Adam, the Downtown Streetcar project was rejected due to its cost as a tourist train (tens of millions) with seasonal ridership and a limited route. As proposed, it was not a viable public transit option. in my view it would probably have far better ridership if it the proposal extended up to Kerrisdale -- maybe even further down to Marpole and the Canada Line at the Marine Drive Station i.e. move beyond the sinkhole of summer tourist trade and become embedded into the year-round mass transit system.<br /><br />In addition, the particular Bombardier Flexity stock they chose was also very narrow (designed for narrow pre-car European streets) and without adequate ridership would have had a very high per rider operating cost, which would have greatly reduced its frequencies, something continuously ignored by those obsessed with the romance of trams.<br /><br />You are right that there was concern about the costs of the Olympic Village, and that affected this descision. With a $700+ million debt imposed solely on the residents of Vancouver (i.e. not on any other city or level of government), Meggs had every right as a councillor to decide to quash a tourist train and be concerned about provincial funding for future transit. You will note that the province didn't pay even one Canadian loonie to help save themselves from an international embarrassment if the Vision council failed to step in and assume the entire debt to finish building the village. Your portrayal of the 2008 council acting responsibly is rather unfair. Your criticism is better directed squarely where it belongs -- at the provincial government which originally applied to host the Olympics and which is primarily responsible for funding transit in BC.MBnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5810004648766820675.post-64505624540567827412013-09-12T22:44:47.723+01:002013-09-12T22:44:47.723+01:00@ Sid
TransLink is, in fact, a creature of the BC...@ Sid<br /><br />TransLink is, in fact, a creature of the BC provincial government which is also responsible for the lion's share of its funding. In practice, the provincial government, which has been dominated by a party over the last 12 years whose electoral support is primarily in the car-dominated suburbs, starves the transit system in a metropolitan region with more than half the provincial population while concurrently spending orders of magnitude more public money on an extravagant and wasteful freeway system in the same area.<br /><br />The BC government also appoints the board members and has denied real decision making authority to local elected officials.<br /><br />Further, other than a few drops of crumbs here & there from Ottawa, our federal government, unlike almost every other national government in the industrialized world, does not fund transit to any measureable and stable, long-term level. We no longer have a federal Minister of Urban Affairs despite the fact 85% of the electorate live in our cities. A National Transit Plan remains a pipe dream to urbanists.<br /><br />Under these circumstances TransLink cannot be blamed for the situation they -- and we -- are in.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5810004648766820675.post-16457002913983395782013-09-03T01:55:24.104+01:002013-09-03T01:55:24.104+01:00Thanks, Robert. Great blog. very well written, and...Thanks, Robert. Great blog. very well written, and great analysis, considering your short visit. Many of the criticisms and questions that you raised are indeed explained by politics and local history, as other posters have written.<br /><br />Thanks, Matthew. Great post. I too love Continuum, but I have not seen that episode. As far as the Olympic Line is concerned, I believe that the new tram cars were leant to the City of Vancouver by Bombardier's division in Brusssels, not by the City of Brussels. Bombarier offerred to sell the streetcars to the city of Vancouver, but the city (read: city council) was not interested. <br /><br />This can be explained as follows. I would assume that the original decisions to establish the "Olympic Line" were made by the NPA council, prior to the November 2008 election. In 2008, the NPA council was rejected in favour of the current Vision council -- largely on the basis of the poorly understood and poorly analyzed Olympic Village financing scandal. <br /><br />In 2010, after the Olympics, the City (read: Vision council) did not act to buy the tram cars, and also showed no enthusiasm to pursue a more permanent streetcar line, beccause it was an NPA idea. This was bluntly explained by Geoff Meggs, the most powerful (vocal) member of City Council (after the mayor). He has stated publicly that he does not want the city doing anything which would lead the provincial government to think that the city will take responsibility for transit, that might reduce the chance of the UBC line being funded by the province. Wrong thinking, in my opinion.<br /><br />I, too, was very disappointed that Vancouver residents showed so little interest in the streetcar proposal. I would chalk it up to Olympics fatigue. Very short-signted, though. Now that Translink is in such a difficult financial position, 5 years later, there is a lot more public interest and enthusiasm for streetcar projects. <br />Adam Fitchnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5810004648766820675.post-66928950307446225622013-08-10T01:08:47.915+01:002013-08-10T01:08:47.915+01:00Oh, on wayfinding. Again I agree with your critis...Oh, on wayfinding. Again I agree with your critisms but the website is actually quite good and lets you find out how to get where you wish to go quite easily. There is also a good Frequent Transit Network map so if you just print out that map and are near the frequent network (most of Vancouver but not great coverage in the suburbs) you can use the map to get where you are going no schedule required because I believe the Frequent Transit Network is supposed to be less than 10min (15?) frequency all day.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5810004648766820675.post-50860370120933837142013-08-10T01:01:34.536+01:002013-08-10T01:01:34.536+01:00Just a quick comment about the Canada expandabilit...Just a quick comment about the Canada expandability. The underground stations all have a 10 or 15m false wall section for future expansion to allow for an additional 'C' car. I also believe frequencies can still be increased on the single track sections over current usage. In theory it was supposed to have an ultimate capacity of 15,000pphpd although I assume that includes station expansion and double tracking the Richmond segment (I think they designed it to be doable). I agree with complaints about things like the canting.<br />Some background to the Canada Line may help, it was not considered a priority for the regional government which did not consider Richmond an area they wanted to promote high growth in (flooding risk, farm land, more risk in an earthquake...) the line was imposed by the provincial government. From day one critics were extremely vocal in stating ridership numbers were hugely inflated and would never be achieved, the main consensus was that ridership on the line would underperform (so much for that). That said there is a logical existing parallel alternate route to the west (the Arbutus corridor) that would make a good LRT line to relieve pressure on the Canada Line.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5810004648766820675.post-48966432857115796642013-07-08T17:02:02.882+01:002013-07-08T17:02:02.882+01:00I had heard that the reason for not using Red for ...I had heard that the reason for not using Red for the Canada Line was of those with colour-blindness. Apparently some aren't able to see red, hence going for the light blue. Not sure how true this is, but its what I've heard.Jonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00541538004258271804noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5810004648766820675.post-69494417230184770962013-06-08T21:10:23.022+01:002013-06-08T21:10:23.022+01:00The older UTDC (now Bombardier) trains are equippe...The older UTDC (now Bombardier) trains are equipped with steerable trucks. They were designed from the outset for tight curves that might be needed in adding a metro to an existing built up city centre. That is why they are very quite on curves. As apposed to standard fixed trucks on the "newer" trains.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5810004648766820675.post-55162760569384695612012-11-20T00:54:09.181+00:002012-11-20T00:54:09.181+00:00The Federal Conservative Party didn't want it ...The Federal Conservative Party didn't want it red, because Red is the Federal Liberals. That is why we ended up with two blue lines in a four line system, even though one was already blue.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5810004648766820675.post-22036695880837717912012-09-10T17:55:11.630+01:002012-09-10T17:55:11.630+01:00Dang...I deleted my original post while trying to ...Dang...I deleted my original post while trying to get my name to not be a link. Posted again below.<br /><br />***<br /><br />Thanks for your insightful post. It's amazing how accurately you picked up on some of the deficiencies of Vancouver's mass transit system. An above poster wrote that its development is all about politics. This is so very true. It's all about politics and the pork barrel. It's frustrating to see the Canada Line Templeton Station out in the middle of a field, servicing a mostly-empty parking lot, when a station at 33rd Ave was dropped from the plans, which would have served QE Park, several hospitals, and a large RCMP facility. It was very exciting as details of the Canada Line emerged...but as I watched the plans develop, it was clear that it was more showpiece than functional, practical system; developed in haste for a strict interpretation of immediate need.<br /><br />The strangeness of the Millennium Line route can be explained by the fact that it, the Evergreen Line, and the future UBC Line were supposed to have been part of one line. Only the middle section was built, which also happened to be the cheapest and most politically expedient section, where rights-of-way and potential property expropriation would be less of a problem. The Evergreen Line is needed far less than the UBC extension, but the parochial nature of our municipal politics means that the screams of suburban taxpayers are heard louder than the complaints of commuters on the 99B bus, which runs between Commercial/Broadway Station and UBC and is completely inadequate to demand. I read a mind-boggling statistic that the 99B bus carries more riders in a week than the total number of residents of the two municipalities the Evergreen Line will serve. The possibility of a UBC Line also seems to be plagued with powerful NIMBYism, as it will run through a wealthy section of town. I've often thought that some of our problems could be solved by an intermediate extension...a first step to the construction of a UBC Line...by extending the Millennium Line to Broadway/City Hall with a Mount Pleasant station at the major intersection of Main/Broadway/Kingsway. I had never considered an additional downtown loop, but that is an interesting suggestion.<br /><br />You may be interested to know that some additional stations have recently been announced: one on the Richmond spoke of the Canada Line between Bridgeport and Aberdeen (I think it's to be called Capstan Station), and another on the Evergreen Line between Coquitlam City Centre and Douglas College: Lincoln Station. Perhaps unsurprisingly, both are being paid for by private interests: a real estate development and a shopping mall.<br /><br />Unfortunately you weren't here to see the "Olympic Line". A few million dollars were spent rehabilitating an old train track and building two stations for this "demonstration line" during the Olympics. It was free of charge and ran from Olympic Village station to the major tourist destination of Granville Island (also home to the main campus of Emily Carr University). A tram car was borrowed from the city of Brussels, but was sadly returned after the games. It was a great little service while it lasted, but it didn't seem to have drummed up anywhere close to the amount of support for the downtown streetcar plan that it was supposed to have been touting. The tracks sit unused today. Just the other night I saw them in a sci-fi show (Continuum, filmed here in Vancouver) with a CGI train running on them. Unfortunately I think that's all the train we're going to see on those tracks.<br /><br />Thanks again for your post. It's encouraging to see that a visitor can pick up on our shortcomings so quickly. If only our politicians could (or were willing to) do the same.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14337414133089070160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5810004648766820675.post-8078983458263606682012-09-10T17:43:03.699+01:002012-09-10T17:43:03.699+01:00I should perhaps mention that the route colour for...I should perhaps mention that the route colour for the Canada Line all through the planning stages and early maps and diagrams was indeed red. I have no idea why they ended up with a lighter blue as opposed to, say, pretty much any other colour at all...but I can imagine some brilliant individual in some meeting saying something dumb about "BUHHH RED MEANS DANGER ALERT" and groupthink heads began to nod. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14337414133089070160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5810004648766820675.post-31067676359673509002012-09-10T04:27:27.774+01:002012-09-10T04:27:27.774+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14337414133089070160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5810004648766820675.post-74193052766611934302012-09-08T09:03:44.367+01:002012-09-08T09:03:44.367+01:00Ms Anonymous, if you read carefully you may see th...Ms Anonymous, if you read carefully you may see that the post starts:<br />"Although this is primarily a US West Coast trip, I took the chance to hop over to Vancouver for a few days"<br />I think it gets pretty clear that I do not think that Vancouver is in the U.S. and so would most Europeans.... so don't get obsessed, most Europeans appreciate Canada for being slightly more European than the U.S., notably with the metric system and Celsius, even more than the U.K.! And they seem to have a Euro-style health care system .... Transport-wise (and that's what this blog is about) it is not much better than the average U.S., I'm afraid....Robert Schwandlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13156288779783738076noreply@blogger.com